It’s easy to claim things without proof. Plenty of people claim things with Holy Spirit, this makes you no better than the FDS. By Holy Spirit I declare you false prophets since you refuse to answer simple logical questions. The devil is an Angel of false light, you are being misled by WTBTS circular reasoning. Again, the questions are open, answer them honestly from scripture, I will consider this over until such time.
Anony Mous
JoinedPosts by Anony Mous
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65
In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...
by EasyPrompt instill, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.
the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.
do they have to be jws?
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65
In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...
by EasyPrompt instill, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.
the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.
do they have to be jws?
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Anony Mous
Yes, but by expounding on this one argument (again, using WTBTS argumentation) you’ve ignored the argument where I asked about the other numbers where the original texts use the same exact phrases In the original language.
As I said, you also have to explain, if that 1 number is literal, by what argumentation, if the entire text around it is not to taken literal do you say so. There is no indication in the entire book (not even the arbitrary chapter selection in the books) that 12 tribes of Israel having 12,000 people selected is any different than the then completed number. Simple math, keep your units: 12 (apples/figurative) x 12,000 (apples/figurative) = 144,000 (pears/literal?). This isn’t anything like the other scripture, the writer did not use different units like you claimed before (years and heads), the writer used the SAME units. He multiplies people with tribes, there is no 12x12,000 animals resulting in 144,000 people are saved, which would make your argument at least plausible.
Again:
- without secret knowledge from WTBTS FDS, where in the scripture do you get the division between literal figurative in what is basically the same sentence (it must be evident from the same text, not by personal revelation)
- without secret knowledge from WTBTS FDS, why does your seemingly arbitrary selection of literalism not apply to the other numbers (666 and 2M) that uses the exact same Greek phraseology, which literally translated means “number or to count”, later on in the same text. We know 666 was not literal, the text explicitly says so, yet the word for number used there is identical. The book of Revelation uses a ton of numbers, typically Greek fractions and whole numbers, for things the writer claims to literally see and do. He writes to a countable number 7 congregations (assuming this was literally written, since the early text does have 7 sections with specific exhortation for specific congregations), he ‘sees’ a countable 4 creatures, he sees a countable 4 horsemen, yet only in those 3 section does the writer remind us “to count/to number” as if to draw attention that the section with those numbers is some sort of special number (Kabbalah) and not a common/literal number. So why does John of Patmos tell us to count special and then why do you ignore his direction in this case only.
- without secret knowledge from WTBTS FDS, what application does this have before a great tribulation, since the text obviously indicates the selection of the number happens during or post a great tribulation, ostensibly from a larger group (the writer makes a split between those who survive and those who do not) which does not get to wash their robes in the blood of the lamb (they do not get to wash sin off, hence, by scriptural/Christian consistency, they never get saved - which is the phraseology I specifically used prior which was rejected in the first argument,without reference to text, they always will sin/die).
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65
In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...
by EasyPrompt instill, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.
the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.
do they have to be jws?
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Anony Mous
Let’s take the text literal then, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. So they have to be Jews? If you say they are literal, you must then also follow Rev 7:14 which reveals the identity (KJV): These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So, according to the scripture, if you take the number literally, only 144,000 will ‘survive’ a great tribulation. I know WTBTS completely ignores this part, because it undermines the entire premise that the 144,000 are selected before the ‘great tribulation’. It also undermines the whole premise that post-tribulation in the WTBTS version of paradise there will no longer be any sin since only the 144,000 have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
You can’t simply claim secret knowledge by Holy Spirit, as the scripture point outs, anyone with discernment can learn these things, thus claiming Holy Spirit revealed it to you specifically is no better than the WTBTS FDS doing the same, especially given your interpretation is suspiciously close to their interpretation. You have to be intellectually honest with your arguments or they stop making sense. I’m not saying you can’t believe whatever you believe, I’m just asking for a reasonable, logical interpretation which is, as Jesus declared, plain to understand and intellectually consistent with the scripture.
Other numbers in Revelation that use the exact same phraseology in Greek are 2 million scorpion-tailed horse-man hybrids, given your interpretation, they must be a literal number too, yet, nobody ever reported those things to be literal.
Interestingly enough, the original Greek text uses the same word for number (literally translated: to count/number) in the verse with 666, where the writer basically says the name of the beast is to count 666.
So I’ve given you 3 numbers where the writer uses the same phraseology in scripture, to count 666, to count 144,000, to count 2,000,000 - most people except the WTBTS claim all to be figurative, especially given the warning by the writer of Revelation specifically says that the numbers in the text require discernment/interpretation.
The only reason the number (144,000) is used literal by the WTBTS and a few other minor sects is to make a ‘special group’ within a larger group or society. I didn’t say that was your intention, I’m saying that is the reason the WTBTS currently does it, hence my suspicious nature when someone clings to it without proper hermeneutical review of the scripture.
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Greenlees, Chapman and Chitty
by Libby inso after being rudely awakened by a cat fight outside (it's 3am here in the uk) and then proceeding to go outside to rescue my cats from the neighbourhood tom....... i'm now laying wide awake trying to make sense of jw "truth".
(it's all my mind does these days, the lights gone on and won't turn off).
anyway i found myself reading about the gb and came across these fellows , greenlees, chapman and chitty.
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Anony Mous
Still, you hold onto false teachings of the WTBTS which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.
As pointed out, the rest of the book of Revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal. The WTBTS currently says that this number is limited to those running the WTBTS and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.
By what reasoning (not from WTBTS origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of Revelation. Do they have to be JWs? Do they have to be Christians?
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Retirement savings
by TxNVSue2023 inwhat's the current jw stance on retirement savings?
i know it changed.
pre1975 it was an attitude of "don't worry about retirement, this system is ending soon".
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Anony Mous
@Beth Sarum: there are two strata in the WTBTS, you have the true believers and those that simply participate. One has houses, one lives in poverty and most halls I’ve been in it’s really 80/20, 20% has the wealth, 80% doesn’t.
I definitely know people that have given their entire life, energy and what little money they have for their entire life. Some have gotten lucky to some extent, but many have sacrificed and as retirement nears, the 20% sure won’t help, they use their money to get power, wine and dine the CO into elder positions.
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Sign of the Last Days
by Fisherman inin the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?
using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?
how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.
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Anony Mous
@Boogerman: the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast
7Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
16Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
This certainly implies everyone participating in politics and commerce are required to worship/participate, further on the image of the beast slays everyone that does not.
Hence the interpretation that it is the UN, is certainly incorrect because the UN is neither worshipped nor universally accepted. People vie for power within the UN and quite a few nation-states are not partially or fully participating in the UN, hell, the UN keeps certain countries out (eg. the democratically elected Republic of China, Somaliland just to name a few) just to appease other countries. And this is where these prophecies’ interpretations break down, you can never make any group of people completely cooperative, under no circumstances except to very small groups (the size of a town or village) under a free and open market (free from governments and open to all, which implies a pure anarcho-capitalism).
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Are Elders prepared to take the fall for WT/GB misdemeanor's / crime ??
by smiddy3 ini have been thinking about this in relation to the directive given to elders to destroy any incriminating evidence they may have either on their pc`s ,e-mails , private notes in their possession, or notes in their witnessing bags ,etc.
to do with child sexual abuse they may still have in their possession.. isn`t that encouraging the elders to interfere with the justice system ?.
to break the law?.
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Anony Mous
There is a lot of legal issues that the WTBTS seems to want to hide here.
First of all is overall direction to record retention, as others pointed out, is a legitimate action, presuming the WTBTS is in charge over the corporations/officers (which they claim they aren’t). This basically returns responsibility over those records back to WTBTS.
However, giving such a broad directive, especially if it points out special subjects is almost certainly legally pernicious. In many cases, ANY record of criminal behavior should be retained until the crime is reported and the conclusion of any lawsuits, whether criminal or civil, suspected criminal behavior, usually 5 years after reporting to law enforcement.
If it pertains children, then there may be a statute which says for example that such records must be retained until the person is certain age, in Connecticut, it is 30 years after reaching majority. You can’t just destroy evidence if you know or should reasonably be expected to know a crime occurred. If you have notes on a suspected crime involving children, you need to retain the records a lot longer than what people often think.
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Retirement savings
by TxNVSue2023 inwhat's the current jw stance on retirement savings?
i know it changed.
pre1975 it was an attitude of "don't worry about retirement, this system is ending soon".
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Anony Mous
As far as I know, they still do not recommend large savings plans, they still promote part time work for pioneering and I known quite a few people that still have nothing prepared even though they are soon or already have entered retirement age.
If anything, if you have a large pension plan, they would rather you take out money of your 401k to give to the construction of a hall (and I know idiots that have), which they will then resell 10-15 years down the road.
The problem in a cult is always that of mobility, whether it be physical or financial. If you give people the freedom to be mobile, it will be easier for them to act upon that mobility, whether it is through doubts or other issues. If you have no money and have been taught to ‘rely on Jehoober’, like people on welfare, they will always have to rely on Jehoober, there is no other viable option.
If you are a pioneer and you get older, even if you have doubts, the elder kid is cutting your lawn, someone gives you a beat up old car and someone fixes it for you, if you act upon your doubts, you instantly lose access to that and replacing it can be difficult, so you lie to yourself and now even your doubts and outright criminal activity happens in the halls, you have to rely on Jehoober to fix it, because you can’t see how to fix it yourself.
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JW Elder Sentenced for CSA
by EasyPrompt inhttps://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/09/01/jehovah-witness-elder-sentenced-jail-child-sexual-abuse-case/?outputtype=amp.
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Anony Mous
Various issues here:
The guy gets sentenced to 100+ years in prison in 1987, he’s free before even serving a full single sentence.
Then he becomes a JW, within less than 10 years he makes it as an elder, despite his background, despite his status as a permanently registered sex offender, gets special approval by the Service Department. Then he gets only a 15 year sentence.
Both the state and the WTBTS are to blame here, this person does not deserve to be free after just 20 years or a lesser sentence of 15 years for re-offending. He is the personification of what is wrong with modern social justice, and the WTBTS is going along with this social justice because men willing to step up are so scarce, they are special-approving level 3, fresh out of jail sex offenders.
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Sign of the Last Days
by Fisherman inin the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?
using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?
how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.
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Anony Mous
@BoogerMan: at no point in history nor in any point in the future will ALL governments pass power to a single entity. There is always at least 1 (but likely more) people in or in the ascension of power that this will never happen, yes, a group of governments may decide to give up their power (eg. EU) but someone will always recognize the power of being different (that was the Balkan countries or the Swiss)